Over the past few days, there was a wave of discussion, back and forth across the net, about the MacBook Pro keyboard.
It started with an Outline article by Casey Johnston entitled, provocatively, The New MacBook Keyboard is Ruining My Life.
A taste:
I was in the Grand Central Station Apple Store for a third time in a year, watching a progress bar slowly creep across my computer’s black screen as my Genius multi-tasked helping another customer with her iPad. My computer was getting its third diagnostic test in 45 minutes. The problem was not that its logic board was failing, that its battery was dying, or that its camera didn’t respond. There were no mysteriously faulty innerworkings. It was the spacebar. It was broken. And not even physically broken — it still moved and acted normally. But every time I pressed it once, it spaced twice.
“Maybe it’s a piece of dust,” the Genius had offered.
And:
“If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don’t you think that’s kind of a problem?”
Read the article. Well written, it makes the case that Apple has made their keyboards too thin, with too little key travel for comfortable typing and too fragile for the lifetime of hammering for which they were designed.
Next up, check out this Reddit thread, chock full of folks with similar complaints (balanced with complaints about the article itself, of course).
Next up, read this Daring Fireball post, with this somber last paragraph from John Gruber:
I find these keyboards — specifically, the tales of woe about keys getting stuck or ceasing to work properly — a deeply worrisome sign about Apple’s priorities today.
And, finally, some dessert.
considering the recent apple hit piece by Topolsky written for The Outline, i am beginning to believe they’re a troll rag of the Verge sort.
It is interesting to see Gruber heading down the “Apple is doomed” path. For what it is worth (which isn’t all that much) I’ve had no issues with my MBP keyboard (other than a dislike of some of the design decisions) and I’m pretty rough on keyboards.
Debris causing the keyboard keys to malfunction is my singular complaint about my MacBook. Often the debris migrates underneath the keycap, so one moment the keycap feels and acts “dead”, then it suddenly functions as it’s supposed to.
If the keycaps were easily removed and replaced cleaning the keyboard would be a lot easier. They’re not. The keycaps are also nearly flush, trapping debris, so using compressed air is not as effective as it used to be.
My only issue with Johnson’s otherwise accurate and well-written piece was her asking the Genius “If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don’t you think that’s kind of a problem?”
Like, come on. This guy is a retail employee with absolutely 0 say on how these things are designed.
Many arguments therein are self-righteous, presumptuous and flawed. They smack of the same odor and flavor emanating from many tech blogs – the blogger presumes himself/herself to understand engineering and design because they are prolific users and writers. They don’t.
But one thing rings true, this butterfly keyboard has not been perfected.
Exactly. If Johnson thinks an Apple Store genius is a real genius, he should have his head examined. But I would not call the article “accurate”. Precise, maybe. Accurate? Far from it.
This is a real problem – I’ve had several “sticky” keys with my MBP. Eventually they go away, but… come on, I shouldn’t have to hold this thing up and bang on the side or resort to using compressed air. Totally unacceptable.
You mean Josh Topolsky ISN’T actually an industrial design and engineering expert, and simply THINKS he is?!
“Too little key travel” is subjective, as many love the newer keyboards and the butterfly mechanism (many don’t, that’s how subjective stuff works). I can’t stand the old, super long travel, mechanical keyboards, and guys like Gruber still use 20 year old keyboards to have them.
Now, if it’s too fragile for regular use that’s a real problem. However, haven’t these keyboards been around for a while now? Didn’t they debut, more or less, with the revamped MacBook in 2015? If there were some serious design flaws that caused these keyboards to fail at an unusually high rate with typical usage, wouldn’t it have come to light before Casey and his new MacBook Pro and the alleged dust particle?
I’m sure his has an issue, and there is nothing more frustrating than your laptop not doing its most basic function, but I think his leap to Apple has designed these for failure is quite a step.
Yeah, Gruber has been dropping nuggets like this for a little while now. It feels personal, like perhaps he’s had some sort of falling out with his insider connections.
No, he’s always been a call it like he sees it Apple fan. That is, he’s definitely pro-Apple because he believes they do great stuff but he’s never been shy about calling out stuff like this. He just doesn’t go into a huge spiral and churn out pages of whining about issues. Never met him but he seems understated about this stuff online.
Yep. I’m fine with the feel of the keyboards (I’m typing this on one) but they shouldn’t be so easy to see keys jammed and when they do, they should be easier to clean.
I think the people who dislike the feel are people who hammer fairly hard on these – though that’s more of a supposition than anything.
He’s posted twice about this issue (adding nothing to anyone’s understanding of the underlying issue) this week.
It’s not just Apple though, Daring Fireball has taken a much darker, less productive tone overall since the election.
I wish this was the case. Unfortunately, it’s more than just The Outline, who I suspect for the same reasons than you. Plenty of people on Twitter have commented. The ATP folks have run into this issue (and not just Marco, Casey Liss ran into this with his 3rd-gen MacBook 12″).
And I’ve run into it too on my 15″ 2016 MBP, with sticking keys when the CPU runs hot, as well as having to use air to blow out a sticking key independent of when I push the CPU.
The butterfly keyboard definitely has less tolerance. I tend to be careful and don’t eat or make a mess near my keyboard, using a bag, not leaving it outside, and having stuck/reduced-travel keys shouldn’t happen this quickly (I got it in February).
What makes me sad is I really like this keyboard. I think the typing feel is by far the best I’ve ever had, and I wished all of this was nonsense. But I’ve run into several keys myself. Just right now, the spacebar is traveling less than normal, and when I have a chance I’ll have to go grab an air can again.
I prefer the older model ‘Chiclet’ keyboard. Had to buy a new extended and Apple only offered a $129 wireless model with the same super thin design. I rather hate it, make mistakes more often. I love its wireless, hate that its $129. For me this is a case of Apple taking design too far to prove a point or solve a problem that only exists in Phil Schiller’s world. I don’t know many people who are worried about the thickness of their MacBooks and I do not see the rationale for the extended desktop keyboard to have the same design, other than it allows Apple to make consistent parts.
I’d certainly welcome a wireless version of the older model with or without the new Touch Bar.
Most DF posts are just links to others, with some color.
I agree the political aspect of DF is darker (but what about politics isn’t today?) but this is not particularly otherwise out of the normal for Gruber. Listen to his podcast, he’s not generally sour or pessimistic on Apple. Far from it.
Many arguments therein are self-righteous, presumptuous and flawed. They smack of the same odor and flavor emanating from many tech blogs – the blogger presumes himself/herself to understand engineering and design because they are prolific users and writers. They don’t.But one thing rings true, this butterfly keyboard has not been perfected.
I’m just sitting here with several credit cards maxed and behind on payments, last paycheck received this week gone to bills, and flailing away with resumes and interviews so I can have the same chance to be annoyed at a MacBook keyboard as all of these folks.
Yes, I’m jealous. 🙂
That guy was a customer service screener. If he and his colleagues had seen this problem before, if he knew it wasn’t a unique problem, or if he was given a stock answer to wave it off, we—at the very least—have a couple of anecdotal events that bear attention while we all wait to see if they’re occurring elsewhere in significant numbers.
This could be nothing more than a bad batch of components from a specific manufacturing run, or it could be a significant design flaw. Either way, I’d like to know.
I was at a local Apple store a few weeks ago testing these new keyboards, which would take more repetitive practice to get used to than I had time for that day. My error rate was up, of course. Had I heard about this possible issue, I’d have been paying more attention to the specific kinds of errors I was getting.
FWIW, I didn’t need new MBPs to get thin enough to require these low-travel keys. I started on PCs with roughly the same keyboards that Gruber did, after about an additional decade spent on earlier ones that mostly induced hand cramps. So, yes, I hammer. Even on my two-year-old extended keyboard.
If this story is more than anecdotal-level, I’m sure as hell not looking forward to buying my next laptop as much as I had.
In my case, your supposition is correct. This is why I’m not allowed to have a mechanical-keyswitch keyboard at home. 😉
I agree with Caleb that it’s a matter of taste. I happen to be (one of the few apparently) that like the new keyboards. Also like the keyboards for the new iPad Pros.
I have a 1st Gen MacBook and it’s been just fine for me. I’m sorry to hear others are experiencing problems.
It’s liquid damage. Always liquid damage. Move along.
Exactly. This is part of what gives him credibility. I have no doubt Apple itself listens to him closely. He is, in my opinion, rarely far off the mark.
He was silent about the Uber screen scraping thing, even though he usually cares a lot about privacy, so I suspect it’s either personal or he knows a lot of folks that this affected.
That’s exactly it. Before we hang Apple out to dry for bad design, best to figure out if this is widespread or limited to a manufacturing run.
And perhaps also not claim anyone’s blaming a counterperson for not having control over the design.
Or he just doesn’t comment on everything but only on the things that he feels like commenting on. DF isn’t 9to5mac or macrumors where they post on everything, even the most ridiculous rumors.
Do you like it when people tell you why you do things and what you’re thinking? I doubt it so please stop trying to divine what people are thinking and why they do stuff. It’s just a piss-poor way to discuss things.
It’s liquid damage. Always liquid damage. Move along.
That’s been how he’s been for years. However, on more than one occasion the last few months he’s linked a seemingly small issue (a user with a keyboard problem) to some sort of overall, dramatic take on the company. That’s the type of thing he usually lampoons.
I didn’t like the new keyboard at first. Now I don’t like moving back to the old one. People have to get over the “old is better than new” mentality. Same thing is happening with USB-C, jackless phones, and on and on.
This isn’t about old vs. new for me. I was dubious about my current wired extended keyboard’s model when I first started using them (I’ve gone through several since), but it’s a vast improvement over its predecessors.
A laptop will likely never be my primary computer, so I’ll get accustomed to whatever comes next. But if the new ones are this vulnerable?
No, this is about a potential design flaw that breaks the function of a keyboard. I’ll wait for more news.
As it turns out, other than the time this article says it takes to run the diagnostics, this story is all too common and true. Personally I’ve never had this issue on my 2016 MacBook Pro, but I see this on 12″ MacBook’s all. day. long.
Right, but come on? This is far from the first Apple keyboard, or even laptop keyboard, to have issues. I remember quite a few with the PowerBook G3, as the keys used to pop off like a drunk at a Philly game (any Philly game). People howled incessantly, and had sticking issues, when Apple first moved to the “chicklet” style keyboards. As always these things were worked out and improved, but now an issue posted by one user about keyboard failure gives Gruber great concern about Apple? Umm…okay.
The PowerBook G3 was years ago, and the chiclet keys never had a reliability issue until now.
I take the fact he’s commenting on it indicative not that he’s sour on apple, but he anecdotally is seeing a lot of these, it worries him, and perhaps we shouldn’t shrug it off.
After all, I’ve had to blow out my 2016 MBP once already. I’ve never had to do that with a laptop keyboard for 20+ years. I love the feel of this keyboard, but something’s definitely different in terms of designed clearance and dust.
I had a Powerbook 2400c way back in 1997 that had a bad trackpad button. It would work about 80% of the time and fail to register about 20% of the time. That doesn’t sound so terrible, but it was very frustrating. One could argue that the laptop was essentially like that.
I never took it in to get repaired, though. I guess I should have. What I did was buy an external ADB trackpad, and carry that around everywhere. The button on that thing worked 100% of the time.
So, I’ve been listening to the latest episode of The Talk Show, and he outlines it in great detail there. It roughly boils down to several points:
He deeply cares about keyboards and is incredibly fond of mechanical keyboards, specifically the Extended II;
He’s heard lots of reports, not just from readers, but from friends as well.
His (and Serenity, who’s a guest this week) had a take of it’s simply not reliable around people who let things like food crumbs get into the keyboard. Serenity in fact ran into this problem for the first time when she ate near her keyboard (which she doesn’t normally do).
Irrespective of the above, his main problem was that if you do run into this problem, there is no easy repair option. He cited his son’s computer, with the older keys that could be pried open and cleaned. To have to send the laptop back for a 3-day repair violates, to him, a core laptop functionality. He cited screen, keyboard, trackpad.
So, Gruber deeply cares about keyboards, and believes Apple has fallen down here. He genuinely believes this was wrong priorities.
I want to believe he’s wrong. But keyboards do occupy a special role in laptops. I’ve already had a few sticky keys and I don’t eat near mine. Luckily I get my laptop through work, so if it breaks I have an option, but if I were to spend this kind of $$$ and get a keyboard that sensitive, I’d constantly be worried about keeping it pristine, and his point is, we shouldn’t have to.
I genuinely don’t think this is a small problem. And I love how the butterfly keyboard feels. This is a very sensitive, un-user-serviceable keyboard. It’ll be interesting to see if the problem’s frequency increases over time…
Thanks Janak, I appreciate the detailed followup. Not that you’re an expert, but did you glean from this if this is new to the latest MacBook Pros, or has this been an issue since this style of keyboard debuted with the revamped MacBook in 2015?
I don’t know for sure about the first-generation butterfly from the original MB, but I’d assume a number of issues apply (given that the keys are not removable).
The second-generation has gotten a lot more visibility, and these reports. Both 2016+ MBP and 2017 MacBook owners have reported the issue.
BTW: If there is any question that there is something personal going on between Gruber and Apple, and he’s damn salty about it, have a look at Daring Fireball today. It would seem he didn’t get a pre-release iPhone X and he’s not taking the high road.
Yeah, noticed that. I think he’s still salty about the Yankees losing 🙂