Mark Gurman, Bloomberg:
Interviews with people familiar with Apple’s inner workings reveal that the Mac is getting far less attention than it once did. They say the Mac team has lost clout with the famed industrial design group led by Jony Ive and the company’s software team. They also describe a lack of clear direction from senior management, departures of key people working on Mac hardware and technical challenges that have delayed the roll-out of new computers.
Combine this with Tim Cook’s response to employees in an internal memo:
“Some folks in the media have raised the question about whether we’re committed to desktops,” Cook wrote. “If there’s any doubt about that with our teams, let me be very clear: we have great desktops in our roadmap. Nobody should worry about that.”
It’s not that I am worried. It’s more that I recognize that Macs are in the back seat now. Especially the Mac Pro.
Letting the Mac Pro languish is shortsighted thinking. As I’ve said many times, Apple developers are foundational to Apple’s success. Inside Apple, developers are building the secret future. Outside Apple, developers are building the apps, macOS and iOS, that bring life and revenue to the ecosystem. Make sure those developers have the best tools possible so they can do their work efficiently and effectively.
And don’t let elegant design be a bottleneck for the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro need not be retail store pretty. Just make it powerful as can be, let me add memory and drives, swap out video cards, VRAM, GPUs, SSDs and the like for third party options, and get it to me ASAP. It can be ugly or plain, just not loud. As long as it runs the latest macOS and is compatible with all the major power tools, like Final Cut Pro, Logic, ProTools, Xcode, Photoshop, etc.
Also, everyone developing for iOS needs a Mac. Unless they release an iOS version of Xcode, all these app developers will continue to need pro-level machines.
I’m with ya Dave.
I wonder if Bob Mansfield’s reassignment to the Apple Car has anything to do with the Pro languishing. Perhaps, he was the glue that kept their department cranking out one delight after another.
Desktops do not necessarily mean MacPros, so no Cook, its not that clear to me. If Apple can make a MacPro that looks like an iMac and smells like an iMac, then I’m fine with that. The second requisite LG monitor, however, really ruins the elegance of it for me. [que the Apple Hawks’ rage response]
The Mac Pro isn’t for developers, though. An iMac or Macbook Pro is more than enough for almost all developers. Letting Mac Pros languish is actually long term thinking, recognizing the demand for such expensive specialized hardware is growing exceedingly limited. The only hope for the Mac Pro in the long-term is if there is some way to tap into the gaming market.
The real rubbing points for professionals, including developers, is software quality, not hardware. Developers would be better served by having a more stable XCode than a new Mac Pro.
The lack of updates to the mac pro suggests to me that it was poorly received and Apple has gone back to the drawing board. I suppose we will see a slightly different mac pro in the next year or so. A dual CPU version of the cylindrical mac pro, with just 1 GPU and with multiple slots for SSD sticks, seems possible. However,
“Just make it powerful as can be, let me add memory and drives, swap out video cards, VRAM, GPUs, SSDs and the like for third party options,”
It seems pretty clear to me that Apple considers spinning drives and add-in cards a relic of the past. Likewise they are unlikely to abandon the “heat sinks surrounding a single central fan” design. Space for multiple User-upgradable m2 SSDs? maybe. PCI slots? nope.
Here’s the problem in a nutshell.
1 You cn build a hackintosh with all the specs and expansion you care to have for around $1500. I am not suggesting you do so.
2 Apple could build he same machine and charge $3000 for it. Pros would buy it. I would buy it.
3 Apple hates us so much that they won’t build a machine where they can essentially double their money.
4 It is shortsightedness that drives Apple too do this.
If adobe made Creative Suite for Linux, I’d switch in a heartbeat. Everything else I use is available in a Linux version.
apple can sell its watch and $200 watch bands. I’ll look at my phone if I want to tell the time.
Developers are very fond of multimonitor setups — often three monitors. And currently you can’t run dual external 5k monitors off of a retina imac. So no, actually, many developers will be wanting a mac pro. Not to mention that developers are just as susceptible to spec lust as any other nerd.
The Mac Pro is certainly a developer’s machine. Multiple VMs, compilers and Xcode all benefit from massive amounts of RAM and real networking capabilities.
I think they were sort of short sighted in there redesign of the Mac Pro. Because all it’s parts are proprietary, the only people who will release upgrades are Apple and it costs a lot of money to design and manufacture. Now that the Mac is on the backburner, the design work would probably take a lot longer. With the previous Mac Pro, they only need to design the logic board and take some off the shelf parts or have light OEM customizations to make a new Mac Pro. Now they have to design everything to fit in that tiny case and all the restrictions that come with it.
Most developers aren’t running three 5k displays. The new Macbook Pro can run two 5k displays or 4 4k displays. I would expect the new iMacs will be at least as capable.
As you intimate want and need are quite different things.
Yes, this is all because Apple hates you…
“Apple developers are foundational to Apple’s success.” ehhh. no so much anymore…. unless you are producing music, movies, TV shows, or the new Facebook…. Yeah, I know.. apps.. But what are the kids doing with their phones? communicating on the newest platform that is, for the moment, add free. Me? I’m a long time Pro-Tools user, but can see the handwriting on the wall. It’s all going to the cloud. No more local storage. You’ll never own anything, including the document you produce.
I don’t think Apple “hates us”, as much as they are simply chasing the biggest dollar. Like it or not(and I don’t), the world is moving everything to the cloud. No more local storage. And after you let that sink in, consider what you’d need a MacPro for anyway….
“the world is moving everything to the cloud. No more local storage.”
I have lots of local storage here. External hard drives, external USB sticks. What I don’t have, don’t need, and will never buy again, is lots of internal storage. Why waste the electricity on an internal multi-tb spinning disk when the data on it is only needed once a month or less?
This is missing the fact that larger environments (like mine) are multiplatform and really like to avoid having a monitor+CPU combo. We stock monitors independently of computers. So, the Mac Pro is our only real choice, not the iMac.
While I haven’t tried the 2016 MacBook Pros, large Xcode projects often swamp older MBPs. I deal with one such project on a regular basis, and that’s the reason I had to get a Mac Pro—I couldn’t stand my machine grinding to a halt when Xcode is indexing or compiling. So, that hasn’t been a sufficient option.
This is, of course, different from whether Apple cares about these use cases. If not, it’d be a real shame.
I don’t understand this argument. All the parts for Mac Pros have always been proprietary. If you open up the trashcan, it’s really modular and trivial for Apple to build new GPU boards or CPU boards.
software developer here — two 27″ monitors is all that i need or want or have room for. good heavens.
but i do the same on my 2011 iMac with SSD and loaded RAM. even drives my win VM on a separate 27″ monitor to boot.
Everything has to evolve. I work in a large multi-platform company, so I see these issues. Ultimately in any of those scenarios you are looking at keeping a CPU device and monitors, so the complexity is actually the same.
apple hates users = troll trope dreck. get real
I really agree on the last paragraph. If Apple no longer has the desire to do all the custom work on a desktop workstation, just design a quality standard ATX (or whatever the current standard is) PC case and order a special run of motherboards from Intel.
The trash can Mac Pro is pretty cool, but feels like a vanity project. I think it missed its mark for a fair number of users by throwing away useful features like dual Xeons, an easily replaceable video card, and the ability to add extra storage inside the box.
From a fulfillment perspective, it’s not. For example, I had a Linux workstation and migrated to a Mac Pro. I was able to keep the same monitor. Furthermore, we’re allowed to refresh our desktops every few years, but can keep our monitor. And so on.
Anyway, yes, everything evolves and I suspect this use case is reaching its end in Apple’s ecosystem, which is migrating wholly to hermetic systems. But it’s going to be hard pill to swallow for many old-timers, including those on this board, as it’s been 29 years since the advent of the Mac II in 1987 and modular Macs. (I never owned a Mac II, but man, did I want one.)
I’m a software developer and use one 30″ monitor. That said, some of my coworkers use three monitors. We’re definitely migrating from a modular Mac model to one that fulfills maybe the 90% or 95% use cases, but there are going to be some unhappy users.
Its great that a 5 year old, non-retina, <=32GB, single-processor prosumer machine with only 4(?) cores, a laptop GPU, and relatively slow SSD works for you.
Others have larger needs and do benefit from machines without all the limitations yours has.
You’d have been able to keep that monitor if you migrated to a iMac or MBP, you’d just have gained an extra monitor in the bargain with either of those options.
I use the same set of standard issue Dell monitors for my PC workstation, PC notebook and MBP at work.
” Apple hates us so much …”
That’s so stupid all it deserves is a comment noting the stupidity of the statement.
I don’t think the world is moving to the cloud. A lot of casual users, sure, but not everyone.
However, I think that’s immaterial. Spinning storage is not something you want inside the computer. It’s noisy, it’s hot, it drains power, and it gets even hotter when it starts to fail. And fail it does. With fast enough connectors, there’s no reason to bring all that trouble into the computer itself. It should be in a dedicated box.
I really disagree on this. External drives are a major pita. 2 extra cables of clutter, 2 more significant points of failure, crappy external power bricks. If its a desktop computer, give me a big case with internal drives, every time.
It’s either an internal cable or an external one, and it’s either adding more stress to the internal power supply (and heat to the inside of the computer!) or adding an external power supply built for the drive enclosure (and with its own heat dissipation).
If you’re getting bad power supplies with your drive enclosures, you should buy less shitty drive enclosures!
What I don’t like about externals is that you’ve got two cables (and 4 connection points) where accidentally disconnection can cause a disaster, so to speak.
Sure, internal drives have an internal cable, but it doesn’t clutter your power bar or get unplugged when you accidentally bump your desktop.
I don’t think the heat and power draw is significant on a big desktop like the old cheese grater Mac Pro with its heavy duty 300+ watt power supply and big fans.
You wrote:
“As long as it runs the latest macOS and is compatible with all the major power tools, like Final Cut Pro, Logic, ProTools, Xcode, Photoshop, etc.”
Could we add Aperture to that list, please? That’d be a sure fire way to say to the world that the Mac is alive and kicking and Apple cares about it.
“External drives are a major pita”
That’s what they make NAS boxes for.
The lack of Mac Pro upgrades means more pressure, and backlash, on MacBooks and iMacs for high end work. There are certain classes of problems that require multiple cores, cooling, and buckets of memory.
From the linked article: “Apple designers are already exploring standalone keyboards with the touch strip and a fingerprint reader for desktops. Apple will decide whether to release these based on how well the features do on the MacBook Pro.”
I think this is the main reason why we haven’t seen new Mac Pro and iMac models recently. Apple needs to get empirical data on how much the Touch Bar + Touch ID + Secure Enclave system is being used. And maybe there are engineering and manufacturing cost issues to solve before they can even ship desktop Macs with a battery-powered “Magic Keyboard 2” with Touch Bar + Touch ID + Secure Enclave.
Remember: Touch Bar alone requires a separate ARM processor to drive the animations etc., and it would need to run on the “Magic Keyboard 2” battery. In addition, the Touch ID + Secure Enclave requires yet another ARM processor, also running off the keyboard’s battery. (Unless Apple temporarily goes back to a USB-connected keyboard.) This is something the linked article glosses over, but is an engineering issue Apple needs to nail down.
Oh, and no, Apple shouldn’t offer the option of old and new Magic Keyboards (with and without Touch Bar + Touch ID + Secure Enclave.) There is no way Microsoft (or Google) could easily copy the Touch Bar + Touch ID + Secure Enclave functionality with that level of hardware security. It differentiates the MBP from all competitors. Apple needs to leverage that advantage as much as they can.
Why? Because Apple Pay on the Web is a potential game-changer. High-security online transactions without the need to remember any passwords at all. The best of all worlds, from an e-commerce viewpoint. For merchants, banks, and end-users.
BTW: Apple was granted a patent for the Secure Enclave processor concept years ago:
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2014/07/apple-granted-a-patent-for-a-secure-enclave-processor.html
I don’t think a Mac Pro is necessary to develop anything but the most video-and-graphics intensive iOS games. Just compiling and linking an average iOS app, even a Universal app, wouldn’t “move the needle” on a Mac Pro.
MacBook Pro? Yes. But only if you’re forced to use a laptop for development.
Mac Pro? Not needed to develop average apps.
I keep thinking the reason Apple decided to move on from monitors is they’re putting all their wood behind the iMac’s arrow. The monitor developed with LG is mostly for legacy headless Macs.
Could they update the iMac to accommodate an external GPU box over PCIe and officially bless a new accessory solution, either first party or third? Something like the Akitio Thunder3 expansion box. Does USB Type-C support the necessary bandwidth and low latency to run multiple GPUs and 5K monitors through an external bridge device?
I don’t think the LG monitors work with any legacy headless Macs. The 4K might with some dongles, but the 5K definitely doesn’t.
Works for some situations, but not all.
SATA is a bit quicker than Ethernet. And a local filesystem is a bit quicker than a networked one.
not sure, if the demand is really shrinking. mac pros are traditionally used for video and audio production. it’s no longer essential for audio production, but video still needs it – and the sector has really been growing with equipment getting cheaper, online video, drones and the like.
People doing video cheaply can get by with an iMac or MBP. Professionals often use Linux workstations or hook into render farms, so don’t have as much need for a Mac workstation.
Us pros are who saved Apple’s ass from extinction in the 90’s. You’d think the biggest company in the world would make a pact to NEVER turn their backs on those of us who hung in there and helped make Apple what it is today. I’d like to see Tim Cook make that statement. Really disappointing and unfair.
Aperture was discontinued 2 years ago…
Thanks, fast asleep. However, Aperture is only discontinued from sale, not from use. Indeed it looks as though some effort has kept it working on Sierra – on early Sierra betas Aperture crashed whereas in the release version it works. Whether that’s active maintenance on Aperture or simply progress through the betas I don’t know. I suspect the former.
However, Aperture is alive, if not kicking. It is a ‘major power tool’. It would certainly show some love to those that still want to depend on it (and don’t want to have to trust Adobe).
They officially announced it was discontinued, meaning there has been zero upkeep. Anything that was fixed in OS updates means stuff on the other side of the fence. Sorry, I know a lot of people loved Aperture, but I can’t think of a single example of something like this where Apple brought it back from the dead. Your best hope is some of Aperture’s features make it into the cross-platform Photos.